Mister Rogers was a learning scientist, and his approach with children was certainly ahead of his time. Today, learning scientists are focusing on the same things Mister Rogers taught children through the lens of “Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood” — things like developing curiosity, finding creative solutions, communication skills, collaboration, and self-acceptance, how to be a good friend and a loving person. These are the tools now scientifically proven to be essential to children’s success and well-being, and they are up to 10 times more accurate at predicting a child’s success than a test score or grades. In a new book highlighting these findings, authors Gregg Behr and Ryan Rydzewski are reintroducing Mister Rogers and his teachings to today’s children, parents and educators, sharing with a new generation the power of curiosity through creativity. The authors discuss their book, essential learning tools and more with host Annette Stevenson on this episode of Keystone Education Radio.

In this episode, you’ll discover:

  • What learning scientists are working on and why their work is important to today’s learners
  • What are the essential tools for a child’s learning and success
  • Why creativity is essential and how it relates to the joy in our lives

Skip to: 01:32 What prompted you to write a book based on Mister Rogers’ lessons? Why Fred Rogers?

“Increasingly, [learning scientists are] talking about things like, how do we make sure kids feel safe? How do we make sure kids feel like they belong to a community that cares about them? How do we make sure that kids feel that they are loved and capable of loving? When learning scientists speak today, they sound a lot like Mister Rogers and “Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood.” And once we realized that we realized we had a book on our hands and we realized that what Fred was doing starting in 1968, in many ways, learning sciences is just catching up to him now.”

Skip to: 05:02 In your book, you describe tools for learning, and they’re described as essential. Can you tell us a little bit about what the tools for learning are?

“In the book we break them down as curiosity, creativity, communication, collaboration, learning, and growing, which is a sort of umbrella term for things like growth mindset and connection, which is of course what we remember Rogers for most, which is the power of human relationships.”

“They have been shown to benefit everything from academic outcomes to mental health, to even physical health and children’s overall well-being. They cost almost nothing to develop. And they hinge on the very things that we think, and that Rogers thought make life worth living, which are self-acceptance, close and loving relationships and a deep regard for our neighbors.”

Skip to: 07:49 How can curiosity be incited in oneself or others, or is it something that’s built into all of us?

“What we need to do is to tap into that curiosity that we have as young kids and the ways in which we ask questions and the ways that we dance and sing and explore. What is it that we can do to maintain that sensibility?”

“Creating a space, an atmosphere for learning where kids feel like they belong, where they matter, where they feel respected, where they feel like they’re safe, both psychologically and physically. It’s those grounding elements that are absolutely critical and essential for the moments that we then begin to be curious about what’s possible and start to wonder about, ‘What happens if I put these two numbers together? What happens if I take apart this toy and look what’s inside?’ One can’t be curious absent the grounding effect that a teacher or an educator creates in creating that safe, respecting environment where you say, ‘I belong and I want to learn.’”

Skip to: 09:48 Tell us a little bit about what was tracked [in the study by Dr. George Land] and what does that mean, tracking that creativity from childhood through to adulthood?

“Creativity is something that’s inherent to all of us, as we saw in those 98% of 5-year-olds. But as we get older and as we get more self-conscious, and as our peers start to give up their creative pursuits, they put down their paint brushes and they give up their musical instruments. A lot of us have a string of creative pursuits that we’ve abandoned over the course of our lives, we learn to become less creative. We learn to become less expressive, less open to new ways of thinking.”

“These characters showed kids that they don’t have to give up their creative pursuits. And in fact, the creative pursuits can enrich our lives and they can make life better for the people around us.”

Skip to: 14:25 Your book is for educators and school leaders, or is it for everyone in many walks of life?

“We wrote this book particularly mindful of the role of parents, families and caregivers, and then our educators, the teachers, the librarians, the afterschool directors. Anyone who works in what we would describe as the caring profession, where they are responsible for the wellbeing and instruction of children, whether that’s at home or in a school.”

Skip to: 16:10 Where can listeners find access to the book and/or any additional resources or contact with you?

“We would love to hear from your listeners, any questions, comments, stories about Fred —almost everybody has one — they can reach us at whenyouwonder.org.”

Q: So your book, I’ve already said the title, When You Wonder, You’re Learning, and it’s based on Mister Rogers’ enduring lessons, what prompted you to write a book based on Mister Rogers and why Fred Rogers?

A (Gregg): Well, first and foremost, it’s a book about learning and it’s a book that stems from nearly 15 years of work here in southwestern Pennsylvania. For 15 years, schools, museums, libraries and all of the educators who work in these and other learning spaces have been coming together under something called Remake Learning, which is this amazing network of educators in and out of school, pre-K through higher ed thinking about what is relevant, what is engaging, what is equitable in support of young people and the learning experiences that we’re trying to create for them. I mentioned this because very early on, we started talking about Fred Rogers and it’s easier in 2021 than in 2007 to articulate this. But we talk about the Fred method and the ways in which these educators involved in Remake Learning take advantage of what Fred Rogers did. And we can think about Fred’s work in a simple formula: whole child plus learning sciences equals the Fred method. That is, like Fred Rogers, these educators are grounded in child development theory and practice, understand what’s developmentally appropriate for children and youth.

And they’re also learning from what we’re learning about learning itself from places right here in our backyard, like Carnegie Mellon University and the University of Pittsburgh, but also campuses of higher education and research institutes across this country. And I mentioned the learning sciences because for me and Ryan, this was our big aha, that is seeing Fred Rogers as a learning scientist, not just as that childhood hero of ours, not just as some convenient story to talk about education and learning, but really understanding Fred Rogers and his work as someone who was a learning scientist, a learning engineer, someone who was deliberate and intentional about what it is that he did with his program. And that’s what we’re finding among educators all across southwestern Pennsylvania, who are involved in Remake Learning.

A (Ryan): One of the things that struck us early on was just how far ahead of his time Fred Rogers was. If you talk to some of the leading learning scientists today, many of them are working right here in Pittsburgh at places like Pitt and Carnegie Mellon. If you read the research papers, if you go to their conferences, which we’ve been doing a lot of over the past few years, they talk a lot like Fred does.

It’s interesting. They don’t necessarily sound like scientists at first. They don’t talk about charts and graphs, they don’t talk about things that are being measured. Increasingly, they’re talking about things like, how do we make sure kids feel safe? How do we make sure kids feel like they belong to a community that cares about them? How do we make sure that kids feel that they are loved and capable of loving? When learning scientists speak today, they sound a lot like Mister Rogers and “Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood.” And once we realized that we realized we had a book on our hands and we realized that what Fred was doing starting in 1968, in many ways, learning sciences is just catching up to him now.

Q: You’re absolutely right. So far ahead of his time. There’s so much more to what he offered, I think then maybe what was on face value to television personality as beloved as that was. So in your book, you describe tools for learning, and they’re described as essential. Can you tell us a little bit about what the tools for learning are?

A (Ryan): Sure. So it’s probably most helpful to start with why these tools matter and I’ll get into briefly what they are. So just to give you an example, a couple of years ago, Google was trying to figure out what makes a good boss. For a long time, they had just assumed that the people who know the most stuff should be promoted. If you can write computer code in your sleep, then you’re automatically going to be a good boss. Google being Google decided to validate that and they did this massive analysis of their own teams. They studied performance evaluations and employee surveys and exit interviews. And what they found was that content is important. There’s no way around it. If you’re going to work at Google, if you’re going to be a boss, you have to be a great programmer. But among the things they found that mattered most, content expertise ranked almost last. The more important things, the things Googlers wanted to see in their bosses, were things like communication.

There were things like curiosity. Can you come up with creative solutions to problems? Do you care about your colleagues and their wellbeing? They wanted all these very human qualities that Fred spent so many decades teaching in “Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood.” And these are what he called his tools for learning. In the book we break them down as curiosity, creativity, communication, collaboration, learning, and growing, which is a sort of umbrella term for things like growth mindset and connection, which is of course what we remember Rogers for most, which is the power of human relationships.

All of these tools have been shown not only at Google, but in just about every aspect of life to be essential to children’s success. They are up to 10 times more predictive of children’s long-term success and test scores. They have been shown to benefit everything from academic outcomes to mental health, to even physical health and children’s overall well-being. They cost almost nothing to develop. And they hinge on the very things that we think, and that Rogers thought make life worth living, which are self-acceptance, close and loving relationships and a deep regard for our neighbors. So again, this is Rogers being ahead of his time, but things he focused on in the Neighborhood are now scientifically proven to be essential to children’s success. And at places like Google, they are the most essential things you can have to succeed.

Q: So we always feel like there’s individuals in the world that are more or less curious with curiosity being kind of an inherent part of them or not as much. So how can curiosity be incited in oneself or others or is it something that’s built into all of us?

A (Gregg): Well, you just said it and it’s built into each of us. It’s not something that some people have and some people don’t. Rather, it’s a learned behavior that we lose our curiosity and we lose our creativity. So what we need to do is to tap into that curiosity that we have as young kids and the ways in which we ask questions and the ways that we dance and sing and explore. What is it that we can do to maintain that sensibility? And as Fred Rogers would say, “A great atmosphere for learning that supports that sort of curiosity.” So what is it that a teacher does in a classroom or librarian does in a library space? Well, so much of it goes back to what Ryan was just saying about creating a human and humane environment. Creating a space, an atmosphere for learning where kids feel like they belong, where they matter, where they feel respected, where they feel like they’re safe, both psychologically and physically.

It’s those grounding elements that are absolutely critical and essential for the moments that we then begin to be curious about what’s possible and start to wonder about, “What happens if I put these two numbers together? What happens if I take apart this toy and look what’s inside?” One can’t be curious absent the grounding effect that a teacher or an educator creates in creating that safe, respecting environment where you say, “I belong and I want to learn.”

A: So you kind of touched upon creativity as well and I want to lead into that because I feel like curiosity and creativity are very intertwined. But creativity as well, I feel like there’s a kind of a label that’s placed on some individuals, “This is a creative individual. This is not so much a creative individual.” So in your book, you highlight a study that was conducted by Dr. George Land that tested for and tracked creativity in children beginning with 1,000 5-year-olds. Tell us a little bit about what was tracked and what does that mean, tracking that creativity from childhood through to adulthood?

A (Ryan): Yeah, this is a really interesting study. So in 1968, Dr. George Land tested the creativity of 1,000 5-year-olds using a test that he had developed for NASA of all places. What he found was that 98% of those 5-year-olds scored so high on Dr. Land’s tests. They qualified as creative geniuses. We know that kids come up with strange and sometimes ingenious solutions to problems, they paint pictures and then make up stories and songs. They’re inherently creative. Anyone who’s spent time around a 5-year-old tends to see this pretty quickly. But George Land, he discovered something else. He tested that same group of 5-year-olds every five years. And when he found was that at 10 years old, the share of creative geniuses fell from 98% to 30%. And when they turned 15, it fell from 30% to 12%. And by the time they were adults, the share of creative geniuses had fallen from 98% to 2%.

And what Land and his team concluded was, as Gregg alluded to earlier that non-creative behavior is learned, that creativity is something that’s inherent to all of us, as we saw in those 98% of 5-year-olds. But as we get older and as we get more self-conscious, and as our peers start to give up their creative pursuits, they put down their paint brushes and they give up their musical instruments. A lot of us have a string of creative pursuits that we’ve abandoned over the course of our lives, we learn to become less creative. We learn to become less expressive, less open to new ways of thinking. Rogers in “Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood” really tried to counteract those non-creative behaviors, those learned non-creative behaviors. The way he did so really started with adults. One of the most important things you learned from his mentor, Margaret McFarland, who was a professor at the University of Pittsburgh, was the Quaker philosophy that attitudes are caught not taught.

So Rogers really modeled creativity. In almost any episode, you can find him doing things that adults might consider childish. Fred sits down and he draws pictures of butterflies and houses and rainbows. And he cuts things out of construction paper, and he builds things out of popsicle sticks, and he plays with puppets and he makes up songs. He does all these things that children do, but as he sits there doing them, he shows kids that what he’s doing brings him joy. The creativity doesn’t have to be just for kids.

And it wasn’t just Fred. He brought countless creative adults into the Neighborhood. Sometimes those were creative professionals, people like Wynton Marsalis and Yo-Yo Ma and Julia Child, but often they were just every day people. If you remember the program, Officer François Clemmons was the Neighborhood police officer, but also the Neighborhood opera singer. Handyman Negri was the Neighborhood’s fix-it guy, but he was also the Neighborhood guitarist. All these guest stars and all these characters showed kids that they don’t have to give up their creative pursuits. And in fact, the creative pursuits can enrich our lives and they can make life better for the people around us.

A (Gregg): There’s a great example from Margaret McFarland, whom Ryan just mentioned as having worked with Fred Rogers and this connects right back to the learning sciences. Margaret McFarland was a premier child development psychologist of the 20th century and worked with Erik Erikson and Benjamin Spock among others to create the Arsenal Children’s Family Center here in the Pittsburgh region, and on one occasion brought a world renowned sculpturist to Arsenal.

And the sculpturist said, “What do you want me to do? And what is it that you want me to just show kids?” And her peer instruction to him was, “I just want the kids to see you loving the clay in front of them.” And to me, that’s just a perfect moment of Margaret conveying to another educator, in this case an artist, that idea that attitudes are caught and how it is that we do simple things, reframe what we do to convey that joy and love of learning, which kids, young people, adults need to see continuously.

Q: So your book, is it for educators and school leaders, or is it for everyone in many walks of life?

A (Gregg): Well, the joyful thing is that a lot of people say, “I’m glad as a human being that I read this book. There’s something so instructive and affirming and uplifting about Fred Rogers’ blueprints for life.” That said, we wrote this book particularly mindful of the role of parents, families and caregivers, and then our educators, the teachers, the librarians, the afterschool directors. Anyone who works in what we would describe as the caring profession, where they are responsible for the wellbeing and instruction of children, whether that’s at home or in a school.

A (Ryan): I would add to that, Annette. We used to say, “We think anybody who knows and loves Fred Rogers will love this book.” And we certainly hope that’s the case. What we’ve been finding as, the book has been out since April, and it is slowly making its way around the world. And what we’ve been finding and hearing from folks in other countries where “Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood” is not known, where Fred is not a cultural icon, that this book is resonating even for them and I think that speaks to the timelessness and the universality of what Fred was teaching, the deep humanity of what Fred was teaching. So we hope that yes, parents, educators, caregivers; yes, fans of Fred Rogers. But as Gregg said, hopefully any human being will find something in what Fred taught.

Q: I would think that’s probably true. I’ve worked in creative services a long time in my career, and I definitely found some great takeaways out of it myself. So it is a great read. I read the book and it’s really great. So where can listeners find access to the book and/or any additional resources or contact with you? How can that be found?

A (Ryan): Sure. So they can find the book wherever they buy their books. We always recommend going to your local independent bookstore. But of course, you can find it online. And if you go to whenyouwonder.org, you’ll find a list of places to buy it. You’ll find a contact form where you can reach us. We would love to hear from your listeners, any questions, comments, stories about Fred —almost everybody has one — they can reach us at whenyouwonder.org.

Gregg Behr

Gregg Behr is a father, children’s advocate and director for the Grable Foundation, whose work is inspired by his hero, Fred Rogers. For more than a decade, he has helped lead Remake Learning – a network of educators, scientists, artists and makers he founded in 2007 – to international renown. Formed in Rogers’ real-life neighborhood of Pittsburgh, Remake Learning has turned heads everywhere from Forbes to the World Economic Forum for its efforts to ignite children’s curiosity, encourage creativity, and foster justice and belonging in schools, libraries, museums and more. A graduate of the University of Notre Dame and also Duke University, Gregg holds honorary degrees from Carlow University and Saint Vincent College. He is an advisor to the Brookings Institution and the Fred Rogers Center, and has been cited by Barack Obama, Richard Branson and the Disruptor Foundation as an innovator and thought leader.

Ryan Rydzewski

Ryan Rydzewski is a writer whose science and education reporting has garnered several awards and fellowships. A graduate of the University of Pittsburgh, he taught elementary school in south Louisiana before earning a Master of Fine Arts in nonfiction writing from Chatham University. As a freelancer, his magazine stories focus on everything from schools to space travel to Mister Rogers’ Neighborhood, and his poems and other pieces appear in several journals. A native of Erie, PA, Ryan lives in Pittsburgh with his wife, Jacqueline.